Editor’s Note: This is part III of a three-part series. You can read part I here and part II here. President Joe Biden formally announced on Wednesday the U.S. will send 31 of the feared M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, clearing the way for Berlin to send Kyiv its formidable Leopard 2 tanks. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg hailed the decision, saying they will help Ukraine “win and prevail” over Russia. This last in a three-part series examines how modern tank warfare works and reveals that it will likely be late in 2023 before Ukraine can realistically expect to employ its new armor effectively.
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It will be far more challenging than many believe for the Ukrainian Armed Forces to translate these modern NATO tanks into an effective offensive force that is strong enough to drive Putin’s army out of Ukraine. Taking the emotion out of the equation, a cold, thorough military analysis of the factors at play leads to the conclusion that the odds are stacked against Ukraine to be able to field an effective force, possibly any time before this fall. There are very practical reasons for this conclusion.
The defensive is the stronger form of war and requires a far lower level of training to conduct it effectively. Holding a trench line or defending natural obstacles such as rivers, mountains, and lakes requires courage and a willingness to fight hard, and to have significant numbers of artillery and direct-fire weapons (to exert a high cost on the attackers). But it requires a comparatively modest level of coordination.
Ukraine has been waging one form or another of defensive warfare for almost nine years now, and has become quite skilled at preventing Russian breakthroughs. Since its initial thrusts were halted in March of last year, Russia, too, has had to focus on building strong defenses, and especially since the debacles of last fall, Russian forces, too, have become skilled at defending their side of the current line of contact.
Offense v. Defense
Offensive warfare, in contrast, requires substantial firepower, courage, and tenacity, but also higher levels of soldier proficiency, training, and experience at the key officer and non-commissioned officer leader levels. It also takes demonstrated capacity for large-scale, highly coordinated maneuvering with large battlegroups. Those kinds of combat operations require considerable training, experience, and time to conduct physical rehearsals (field training exercises). But to win in armored battles, one does not always need to directly defeat the enemy tanks in direct combat.
The most efficient way to defeat an armored or mechanized thrust may be to destroy or disable its logistic trail. The Germans lost the famous World War II Battle of the Bulge, for example, in large measure because their tanks ran out of gas; entire fleets of tanks had to be abandoned in the field because the Allies had destroyed Hitler’s fuel supplies. Likewise, the famous “Thunder Run” U.S. tank thrust into Baghdad in 2003 was a hair’s breadth away from being destroyed by Iraqi troops when the tanks almost ran out of fuel; only a heroic fuel run through enemy-infested roads saved the tanks.
Surprising to many, in the nearly year-long war in Ukraine there have been very few documented tank-on-tank engagements beyond a handful of tank duels. It is unclear, therefore, how even fully trained and proficient Ukrainian tank units will achieve this “game-changer” status many in the West claim will result from the presence of NATO tanks. There appears to be some belief in the West that U.S. and German tanks can’t be defeated by Russian armor. Some might be forgiven for thinking this way, as evidence appears to suggest that Western tanks have been almost impervious to Soviet-era armor.
Historical Tank-on-Tank Engagements
In Desert Storm, there were reportedly zero M1A1 Abrams tanks destroyed by Iraqi T72 tanks, while Saddam’s forces lost upwards of 3,000 total tanks. Similar disparities were observed in the maneuver phases of Operation Iraqi Freedom. But those gross imbalances were due to two compounding factors: superior U.S. equipment operated by highly trained individuals and units, and nearly incompetent Iraqi tank crewmen hobbled by an almost non-existent maintenance system. But the truth is, even modern U.S., German, British, and French tanks are not bullet-proof and can be destroyed in combat.
Russian anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), 125mm tank main gun rounds (from T72 and above tanks), rockets, powerful drones, and heavy artillery all have the capacity to disable or destroy NATO tanks. As important, the logistics and maintenance requirements for modern tanks require a robust and well-stocked system to keep the vehicles filled with fuel, stocked with ammunition, and stocked with large quantities of repair parts necessary to keep the behemoths running.
Retired Gen. Mark Hertling, former commander of the 1st Armored Division, explained in detail on a Twitter thread the real challenges that any country must master if it wants to field an effective U.S. M1 Abrams tank force. It’s an extensive and complex process. The bottom line is that fielding a “game-changer” caliber NATO tank force is far more complex than merely possessing modern armored vehicles. If Ukraine wants to possess an armored fist equivalent to the one used by America in 1991 and 2003, they will have to pay the price required to build it, and that will take both assets, quality human capital, and above all, time.
When I fought in the tank battle of 73 Easting in 1991, our unit had conducted more than a year of intense training at the platoon, troop, and squadron level; that was augmented by another month of regimental-scale field training in Saudi Arabia before crossing the border to attack Iraqi armored units. We had every advantage, we had the most high-tech army on the planet at that time, and a virtual limitless amount of ammunition, fuel, and spare parts.
The Iraqi enemy we were fighting had effectively no navy, no air force, and antiquated and poorly maintained Soviet equipment. They had been demoralized by the inept military leadership of Saddam Hussein, led in the field by poorly trained commanders, and whose crewmembers had abysmal gunnery skills – not to mention they had been subjected to virtual round-the-clock bombing by our allied air forces for over a month.
Combined with the fact the battlefields were wide open and offered virtually nothing to hide behind, the outcome was ordained before the first shot was fired. Ukraine, on the other hand, has none of the advantages we had.
MORE: Why Putin Fears the M1 Abrams Tank
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MORE: A U.S.-China War Over Taiwan Would Be Bloody
Tank Warfare Fundamentals at Play in Ukraine
Zelensky’s forces have a large mish-mash of military equipment from many different countries, covering the range of a handful of very modern gear to large numbers of badly antiquated kits. They have no inherent/domestic maintenance or supply systems, and no ability to manufacture their own ammunition, shells, or rockets. They have a constantly depleting troop base from which to man their units – and though additional rounds of mobilization can fill hundreds of thousands of uniforms for men to serve as ground troopers, it is impossible to “grow” or manufacture leaders with experience; that can only be obtained with the passage of time.
Lastly, while Russia clearly has capacity and personnel problems of its own, it is nowhere near as incompetent as Iraq was in 1991 and 2003 and does have a powerful missile force, an air force of some capacity, and a navy that has been relentless in launching missiles throughout the war. Further, they have the domestic capacity to produce and repair armored vehicles, manufacture tank and artillery shells, and a wobbly, but still functioning, logistic system – and the ability to maintain an army of up to half a million men in the battle zone.
Bottom Line on Those Tanks
The West may give Ukraine many modern weapons, but the fundamentals of military operations are such that Ukraine is unlikely to convert this gear and their human capital into an effective offensive force in the foreseeable future; probably years down the line at best. Many elements of preparation can be shortened, adjusted, or curtailed. Any single shortcut might not have a decisive impact.
But when many and major elements of the components necessary to form strong offensive units are cut short or omitted altogether, there is little foundation upon which to hope for the emergence of a NATO-like armored capacity in Ukraine this spring. If Kyiv can continue to show resolve and prevent any major Russian penetrations this winter and spring – while building combat power out of contact (either in other countries or in western Ukraine) – they may be able to build meaningful offensive capacity by late 2023.
A 1945 Contributing Editor, Daniel L. Davis is a Senior Fellow for Defense Priorities and a former Lt. Col. in the U.S. Army who deployed into combat zones four times. He is the author of “The Eleventh Hour in 2020 America.” Follow him @DanielLDavis.
Harmen Breedeveld
January 25, 2023 at 3:17 pm
“the fundamentals of military operations are such that Ukraine is unlikely to convert this gear and their human capital into an effective offensive force in the foreseeable future; probably years down the line at best.”
“they may be able to build meaningful offensive capacity by late 2023.”
I disagree with Mr Davis (as I have done repeatedly). My reason for disagreeing with Mr Davis is simple: Ukraine HAS already launched two successful counteroffensives in 2022, without all the new western equipment: the counteroffensives around Kharkiv and towards Kherson. Maybe one could even argue that the original fight for Kyiv and with the infamous Russian Kyiv convoy was a successful Ukrainian counteroffensive.
Now Ukraine will have the advantage of numerous new Western weapons systems, as well as an additional 6 to 10 months of training and combat experience.
I suspect the Ukrainians will again prove they are up to the task of making the best with what they got. They may show this in the Spring, in the Summer, or in the Fall. We will see.
But they clearly know what they are doing.
As for the Russians, do they know what they are doing? I suspect they do not even all agree on the ultimate goal of the fighting, let alone on the means of how to get there.
They seem have this idea of throwing lots of men and equipment against Ukrainian lines in the hopes that somehow this will lead to something. Will this go any better than what they did last Summer? I have my doubts.
Time will tell.
Chris Kane
January 25, 2023 at 3:42 pm
LTC Davis: Ukrainians should just surrender to the Russians! It’s hopeless!
Ukrainians: Nah. We’ve been kicking Russian butts for a while now despite your consistently pro-Russian, but always wrong advice.
Many 1945 Readers: Smh. Sit down for awhile.
404NotFound
January 25, 2023 at 4:06 pm
Doesn’t matter at all if theose tanks aren’t a silver bullet.
What matters is the main part of the initial plan is in place. It has come to fruition.
The US yearns for a one-world order or one-world rule. Thus the initial plan therefore calls for the elimination of russia as an obstacle to that aim.
That is now being realized. Monster tanks are going there.To fight and kill russia.
The US has an agreement with alien beings to represent humanity in dealing with all outer space issues. This has been confirmed by haim eshed.
Thus the one-world dream.
To realize that dream, russia must be emasculated or totally eliminated if necessary. Like the indian natives of north america.
After eliminating russia, US will surely proceed to the main plan which is the subjugation of east asia, a much harder undertaking. This has been confirmed by US Navy admiral charles richard.
But will all that be a silver bullet for the US. Answer is NO. It ain’t gonna be no silver bullet nor no final solution. It’s only gonna be HELL on earth !!!
John
January 25, 2023 at 4:21 pm
The tanks are no game changer, but the GLSD bomb is.
Commentar
January 25, 2023 at 5:15 pm
The tanks are a bait for russia to take a bite on.
The US reckons russia will sink in the mud once those tanks reach the front, by sending more men to the meat grinder.
But there is also the possibility that sending NATO tanks could actually poke russia into using nukes. Rather than putting up with more casualties on the battlefields.
Thus putin must unleash his nukes now. If he’s scared, he needs to step aside and let someone with balls to step up.
Otherwise, some guy must put a bullet or two into him and then have him exiled abroad for medical treatment. Like to greece, morroco or egypt.
Gary Jacobs
January 25, 2023 at 5:15 pm
Davis continues to fail at mentioning GLSDB with its 150km range and the 18 new HIMARS on the way. This selective omission seems clearly by design.
Ukraine will soon have much more ability to shape the battlefield and wreak havoc on every bit of Russian logistics on Ukrainian soil, including in north Crimea.
With its programmable fuse the same weapon can switch from air burst to penetrator mode so it can be used against Russian trenches or more hardened targets. And there are thousands of them waiting to be assembled from the rocket motors and the SDBs that already exist.
The same strategy that caused the Russians to retreat from Kherson can be modified and extended throughout the rest of Ukraine.
With a shoot and scoot, Ukraine may even be able to reach out and touch the Dzhankoy airfield, a critical target which is just about 150km from the right bank of the Dnipro.
It is one of the main Russian air bases used to attack Ukraine. Su-25s and helicopters operate in southern Ukraine from Dzhankoy. The base also regularly hosts heavy transport aircraft.
Planet Labs satellite photographs have seen Russia housing 50+ helicopters at the airfield in Dzhankoy, including Ka-52, Mi-28, Mi-35, Mi-8.
Putting this base out of commission will stretch Russian logistics ever further… but GLSDB will be well within range of the two main roads into Kherson from Crimea in the areas of Armiansk and Novooleksiivka; as well as the new Russia regional HQ at Henichesk.
The Sokolohirne train station is another key target for GLSDB just a bit further up the M18. The station is currently out of the range of Ukrainian GMLRS and has turned into a safe zone for Russian soldiers.
Another key Russian airbase at Berdyansk airfield would be vulnerable to GLSDB.
Furthermore, GLSDB would be able to reach Luhansk city which includes several highly crucial targets including troop housing, command centers, vehicle parks, fuel depots, train terminals, and a heliport.
As well, If Ukraine also gets F16s with 500lb-2000lb JDAMs, and ideally some JASSMs, they will be in even better shape for close air support and longer range strikes.
As previously stated in one of Davis’ other pleas for Ukrainian defeat, tanks are not the end of the new equipment will Ukraine receive. But they will be helped with other weapons that shape the battlefield and act as support for tanks as they roll in to liberate the rest of Ukraine from Russian imperialists.
As for his link to MWI on tanks, its from 2020. Clearly the Ukrainians have shown that Russian tanks are far more vulnerable than that paper implies. And as for its mention of the Israeli Merkava and Trophy APS, it’s really only the Russian Kornet that gave Merkava problems. And most of that was in dense areas of Gaza with no space to maneuver… and mountain roads in Lebanon where they were exposed, defenseless, and easily targeted with no way to get off those roads. There are no such mountain roads in Ukraine as there are in Lebanon.
A marine I know who operated the Abrams told me levelling towns the way the Russians have actually makes tank maneuvering easier. In Gaza, Israel has never had the scorched earth tactics the Russians use.
Bottom line: people like Davis have been underestimating the Ukrainians at every turn…Yet they/he have thankfully and repeatedly been proven wrong for doing so.
Here’s hoping Davis’ losing streak continues.
Have a liberating day.
pagar
January 25, 2023 at 5:34 pm
Sending heavy battle tanks to fight russia has ALWAYS been the ultimate magical dream or wet dream of the world’s globalist fascismo outfit.
Now, that dream is coming true.
It’s going to be very exciting times for all the neo-nazis out there, and for the rest of us not in the immediate line of fire, or not directly in the front seats of the show, STOCK UP YOUR LARDER.
There are real hard scenarios coming up soon, scenarios where prices shoot straight up into the stratosphere, food rationing, desperation in the cities, empty shelves, banged-up ATM machines, riot police and national guard units in suburban neighborhoods and inner cities. Shooting off live bullets at the first sign of trouble.
Jim
January 25, 2023 at 5:59 pm
Give’em all the weapons they want.
When the weapons are “burned” then what?
Forever proxy war?
Proxy war today, proxy war tomorrow, proxy war forever.
Sounds like a winning campaign slogan to me.
Yrral
January 25, 2023 at 6:11 pm
European forever war,why tanks are doomed Google Ukraine Control Map
Gary Jacobs
January 25, 2023 at 6:16 pm
Pagar,
LoL, the world’s #1 fascismo outfit is of course Russia. Putin has supported every right wing loon from Le Pen in France to Orban in Hungary and Putin even has his own neo-nazi group fighting for Russia in Ukraine, the Russian Imperial Legion.
Here in the US you can tell who all the right wing loons are by how much they spew Putin’s talking points.
as for your silly scenario of ‘scenarios where prices shoot straight up into the stratosphere, food rationing, desperation in the cities, empty shelves’ blah blah blah…
perhaps you are a having USSR flashback… not to mention describing what is happening in certain parts of Russia right now, but here in the US the shelves are stocked and prices are dropping across the board on everything from oil&gas to food, TVs, computers, etc.
In Europe Putin’s gas weapon has been such an epic fail that prices have plummeted to below pre-war levels, and the warm winter has kept storage tanks so full that they will be able to withstand next winter as well.
Meanwhile Germany is about to have its 3rd floating LNG plant up and running, and is expediting completion of their two land based terminals.
Guess who is selling a massive amount more LNG to Germany and the rest of the EU? The U.S.A. thanks for all that market share. You went from %50 to about %4 in the EU, and just about all you have left is Hungary. Pipes to China wont be done for years.
And you’re selling oil to India and China at massive discounts. Pretty close to a completely unsustainable strategy.
As well, just about every EU country is also stocking up on US weapons. Poland alone spent $5 Billion on Abrams tanks. Then they bought 220 HIMARS. Many other EU countries bought more of them as well. And quite soon the PrSM will be ready to go. That’s a 500mile range missile that can be fired from HIMARS and M270s. If Ukraine can wreak havoc on the Russian military with 30+ HIMARS/M270s that only fire 43 miles…
Oh ya, there will be 550 F35s in the EU soon as well.
You are about to experience complete conventional military overmatch…and the sanctions noose will tighten much more rapidly in 2023.
Bottom line: Thanks for waking up our industrial might, and making a bunch of sales for us… Now the US can turn much more of our attention to China.
Have a liberating day
Walker
January 25, 2023 at 6:22 pm
Russian trolls: “sending those tanks may spur Russia into using nukes.”
Me: “lol, Putin is so worried about losing in Ukraine he is not only willing to commit suicide he is willing to decide suicide for all of Russia.”
Russia won’t use nukes. They are stupid (as the trolls prove), but not that stupid. I for one can’t wait until Russia is brought low by this war. The problem isn’t just Putin. It is the Russian people themselves who have just way too much pride that they can just take whatever they want. Putin does this because it satisfies the people. In other words, taking parts of Georgia and Moldova, and even Ukraine made the Russian citizens happy and increased support for Putin. Putin realized this and has been suing this tactic ever since. It only works because the Russian citizens like the evil themselves.
Eric
January 25, 2023 at 7:03 pm
Daniel Davis thinks it will take the Ukrainians years to master every new weapons system; the war is less than a year old and Ukrainians have mastered many new weapons systems. Hmm. My bet is on Ukraine winning and Daniel Davis being wrong more often than right. Ukrainians can win with the right military equipment and support. The fact that Davis argues against the exact support that they need to win tells us more about Davis than it does about Ukrainians.
Gary Jacobs
January 25, 2023 at 7:35 pm
Jim,
As usual your take is the complete opposite of reality.
If we gave Ukraine all the weapons they want/need…the war would be over much sooner, and Russia would be rolled back to the internationally recognized border.
It’s quite simple really.
OR, Russia could just end its naked imperialist aggression and go home.
ATM
January 25, 2023 at 7:46 pm
Most of the tanks will never make it to the front because in that case the Russians will bomb the rail systems. There are not enough disposable 80 ton flatbed trucks in all of the EU to keep the tanks coming and just imagine what will happen to a long convoy of tanks on the road.
Yrral
January 25, 2023 at 8:07 pm
Jacobs,As long as Russian are incompetent,it will bring only misery to Ukraine, one thing Putin has going for him in Ukraine,is corruption in the Ukrainlan government and lots of Ukrainain that have sold their soul to Russia,let not forget their are more Ukrainain that sided with Putin ,than their are Russian fighting for Putin in Ukraine,you ought too put away your delusional, that Ukraine will ever expel Russian,but a negotiated settlement,that save what now left functional of Ukraine
Neil Ross
January 25, 2023 at 9:31 pm
I’m no military expert, so could someone please explain how important main battle tanks were in either the Ukranian defense or the Russian occupation of Soledar?
I heard reports of artillery, rockets and mortars so would therefore have to agree with Davis’ argument that the arrival of these new tanks will have little effect on the outcome of this conflict, unless there is a breakthrough on the frontlines. I honestly don’t know.
pagar
January 25, 2023 at 10:02 pm
Russia must start employing nukes in this rapidly unfolding drama where the globe-trotting fascists have finally dropped their masks and at last revealed their true selves.
What did biden and co say until very recently.
“We won’t get engaged in the conflict…”. “Never going…. in there…”
Clear as day, US is very directly involved now, with billions of dollars, weapons and advisers from DoD & CIA and now M1 abrams pouring into the stupendous effort to kill off russia.
Putin did the right thing by drawing a red line against the continued expansion of NATO, but DID THE WRONG THING by not flattening outright the neo-nazist capital kyiv on the 24th feb 2022.
But the opportunity to do so has appeared once more. Now is the time to flatten kyiv, lviv and odessa and any other enrry point for US-NATO heavy tanks.
If putin hasn’t the balls to do so, he needs to step aside and allow someone, somebody with real male cojones, to do the job.
Biden won’t dare do anything, except hurl obscenities and curses. He will only cry and gnash his teeth and begin banging his balls later.
Kelvin Clarke
January 26, 2023 at 12:46 am
In 1991, the Iraqi military was the world’s most battle hardened army. The Iran – Iraq War of the 1980’s was a decade long blood bath with millions of casualties and ferocious combat. The invasion of Kuwait was a cakewalk for the Iraqi veterans of the conflict with Iran.
I am certain that Mr Davis was part of an excellent military force in Kuwait during Desert Storm. His adversaries were more battle experienced than him, and much more disciplined than the current Russian military. The Allied victory in Desert Storm combined incompatible weaponry from countries that spoke different languages with a strategy that only revealed itself when Schwartzkopf and Bush declined to attack Baghdad. Seat of the pants.
Harmen Breedeveld
January 26, 2023 at 5:12 am
Yes Jim, we know that you want the Ukrainians to surrender to the Russians. You have made that clear over and over again.
But you have never explained why the Ukrainians should want to do that. So that the Russians can proceed to wipe out Ukrainian culture and start doing what they did in Bucha and other Ukrainian towns: kill scores and scores of Ukrainians? That is not exactly an attractive proposal.
Or to see Russia install another corrupt dictatorial puppet on the throne, like Lukashenko in Belarus? Joy!
Do you realize how utterly bankrupt Russia’s ideology is? That is why pro-Russian posters resort to fearmongering and lies to try and sow doubt. Because that is the best they can do. If they would ever be honest about Russia, no one would ever buy what they are trying to sell.
And what is Russia trying to sell? An unwinnable, foolish, murderous war launched because of the ego, vanity and delusions of an ageing dictator.
Hundreds of thousands of Russians and Ukrainians will die. Millions will be wounded, traumatized, lose loved ones.
An unimaginable human toll, because of a 71-year old sad, delusional man in the Kremlin. And because of all those enablers around him.
bender
January 26, 2023 at 5:14 am
and Daniel Davis is a great Russian asset, as always..
TheDon
January 26, 2023 at 7:03 am
Zelensky purged his gov today.
Might be another castro democratic decoy
Neil Ross
January 26, 2023 at 11:14 am
So, all you so-called experts that follow Davis’ articles, especially the ones that have been hyper-critical of his so-called predictions, time to call you out on your own predictions for this Russia/Ukraine conflict. But only if you’re willing, do not take this as an ultimatum of any sort.
Where do you think this conflict will be in one month and 10 months from now?
I personally think 30 days from now we will see the same frozen frontlines with only modest gains by Russia all along the front. Sadly I think the same will be true 10 months from now except that Russia will have been successful in severing most of the supply lines for the UAF from western Ukraine. Those prized western tanks will never see the front lines.
Predictions are always wrong, so I expect my predictions will be as well (as will yours, no doubt), but at least I am now on record. And feel free to tell me to take a flying f***, should you so desire.
DDisDumb
January 26, 2023 at 11:36 am
What a strunz this guy is. I can’t imagine a more predictable and poorly argued hypothesis. Yes logistics and training are hard. The Russians have certainly demonstrated the veracity of that idea having made a hash of both in their incompetent invasion which has culminated in human wave attacks against to take Soledar (remember that their real goal is to take Bakut, which the Ukrainians still hold). Yes, these weapons will not arrive tomorrow and will take time to train on…this also includes the Bradleys Strykers and other motorized weapons that have been promised…but they will undoubtedly have a major impact on the ability of the Russians to continue their human wave assault tactics, which are already bleeding the Wagner group white. Ukraine is well on its way to being able to find weak place along the Russian to punch through and cut off their supply routes; a tactic which worked well in Kherson. Perhaps they will even be able to cut the Crimean land bridge off leaving large masses of men trying to escape an every tightening vice.
Jim
January 26, 2023 at 2:41 pm
Jacobs, your neo-Nazi regime inspired by Stephan Bandera will likely end up in the dust bin of history.
Your warmonger dreams… will go up in smoke.
And you’ll be exposed as another Baghdad Bob.
You should be ashamed… but you have none… no conscience… just the warmonger’s lust for consummating their desires … how pathetic.
Don’t deny it… I’ve read your comments too many times where you express you brutal & vicious agenda regarding Russia.
You’re no better than Stephan Bandera.
But, then again, Bendera is a hero to the Ukraine leadership in Kiev, as express by a Tweet put out by their parliament, on Bandera’s birthday, January 1st, then deleted upon complaint of Poland.
So, given your unquestioning support for Ukraine, he is likely a hero to you… a mass murderer.
Disgusting.
Gary Jacobs
January 26, 2023 at 4:48 pm
Jim,
I hate to sound like a broken record in here…but As usual, your take is the complete opposite of reality.
You pretending a Govt. run by a Jew who lost family in the Holocaust is full on ‘neo-nazi’ is the height of absurdity.
But that’s par for your course at this point.
You clinging to a tweet about Bandera as proof of Ukraine’s Nazism is rather outlandish. Even for you.
I have already obliterated your faux notion of Ukraine’s collaborator past repeatedly.
I shouldnt have to repeat the same information, but there is a tragic irony in the notion I have to repeatedly call you out because you cant wrap your head around the fact that Ukrainians collaborating with the Nazis was far more of a reaction to centuries of Russian oppression than any affinity with the Nazis.
That says more about your MO as a cherry picker to fit your faux agenda than it does about the reality of the situation.
Clearly you need someone to hold your hand as you go through this again. Stepan Bandera was sentenced to death for his involvement in the 1934 assassination of Poland’s Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki, commuted to life imprisonment.
Freed from prison in 1939 following the Nazi invasion of Poland, Bandera prepared the 1941 Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood in Lviv, pledging to work with Germany after Germany invaded the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941. The Germans disapproved of the proclamation and for his refusal to rescind the decree, Bandera was arrested by the Gestapo. Germany was never going to allow Ukraine to be a free state.
But why stop at Bandera? Some Ukrainians also have an affinity for Roman Shukhevych. He is unfortunately known for butchering Jews and Poles.
And who now is the biggest supporter of Ukraine among its neighbors? Poland. So Ukraine currently has a Jewish president who lost family in the Holocaust and was elected with %73 of the vote and Ukraine is getting major support from Poland…all proof of putting its Nazi collaborator past behind it.
I have no illusions about Ukraine’s collaborator past. I also have no illusions about Russia’s deal with Nazi Germany to outright coordinate their invasions of eastern europe to carve it up between them. That’s called the Von Ribbentrop Pact. But you dont want to talk about any of that because it doesnt fit your faux notion of smarts.
But why stop at Ukraine? The United States also had a nasty history of co-opting Nazis. It’s called Operation Paperclip. There are also unfortunately a bunch of neo nazi groups in the US, and Trump himself just met with Nick Fuentes, one of the most prominent NeoNazis in America.
Does that mean the entire US govt. is built on NeoNazism? No. Not even when Trump was unfortunately President.
Neither do I project such childish BS on Ukraine.
As well, and as stated above to pagar… it is in fact Putin who supports every right wing loon from Le Pen in France to Orban in Hungary and Putin has his own neo-nazi militia fighting with the Russian military in Ukraine: the Russian Imperial Legion.
Also as stated to you before, you pretending you know more than I do – a Jew who both had family ethnically cleansed from the Russian empire AND lost family in the Holocaust – about how relevant Ukraine’s Nazi collaborator past has to what is going on right now…is hubris of the highest order.
You arent even close. And I will continue to call you out for how easy it is to prove you wrong.
final thought: Your name calling schtick whining about ‘war monger’ etc… is sad really.
You have no intellectual leg to stand on so you resort to name calling. Same with your consistently inaccurate use of ‘neocon’.
You think you can bully people into submission. No wonder why you defend the Russian position at every turn. That’s Putin’s playbook, but It has the exact opposite effect on me as you intend it to.
Have a liberating day.
Sofronie the Monk
January 26, 2023 at 8:41 pm
@pagar: “There are real hard scenarios coming up soon, scenarios where prices shoot straight up into the stratosphere, food rationing, desperation in the cities, empty shelves, banged-up ATM machines, riot police and national guard units in suburban neighborhoods and inner cities. Shooting off live bullets at the first sign of trouble.”
Except for the ATM machines, we already had exactly these where I live. And guess who was in charge back then – the Communists. Guess no.2: who brought them? The Russians.
So some of us have already lived through your nightmarish scenario, but it was when we were under Russian influence. So thank you, Ukraine, for sparing us another round of this.
Serhio
January 29, 2023 at 9:52 pm
Gary Jacobs
“Davis continues to fail at mentioning GLSDB with its 150km range and the 18 new HIMARS on the way”
Previous deliveries of Himars led to the fact that the Ukrainian Nazis began using them to fire at hospitals, schools and kindergartens in the first place. They are taking revenge on civilians for their choice in favor of Russia and want to sow panic. The most recent case: a blow to the hospital in Novoaydar. This is not a military facility. More than 40 patients and doctors were killed and injured.