On Tuesday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky visited the front-line city of Bakhmut, under a savage Russian assault for months.
On Wednesday, Zelensky came to Washington, DC, where he met with President Joe Biden and addressed Congress.
Back in September 2021, when Zelensky first visited Washington, he was dressed in a dark suit, white shirt, and dark tie. He was also clean shaven.
This time, the bearded and visibly tired Zelensky came in olive green battle fatigues and pullover, with a trident, a symbol of Ukrainian statehood, pinned to his chest.
The symbolism could not have been clearer. The Ukrainian warrior-president—the ex-comedian who turned down an American invitation to flee after Russia invaded on February 24 and chose to risk his life by fighting for his homeland—had come from the land of war to the land of peace, not as a supplicant, but as a hero and ally.
Fittingly, the meeting with Biden took place below five paintings of American patriots—George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Alexander Hamilton, and Thomas Jefferson.
During his first visit, Zelensky lacked the stature of these great men. During this visit, he could easily measure up to them.
Zelensky’s visit didn’t produce any significant breakthroughs in U.S.-Ukrainian relations. The United States supports Ukraine in its resistance to Russia’s genocidal war, and, as President Biden emphasized, it will continue to do so.
The importance of Zelensky’s visit lies elsewhere: in the symbolism.
Zelensky brought both Bakhmut and himself to America. He reminded Americans of the horrors of the war that Russia is waging against Ukraine’s people; he told Americans that, just as he had not surrendered, so, too, would the people he represents not surrender.
And he insinuated the war and its many atrocities into the American psyche, effectively telling us that there is no avoiding Bakhmut, however much we might prefer to think it doesn’t exist and doesn’t affect us. But it does, Zelensky’s presence said, and it’s not going away.
The Ukrainian war is America’s war. Ukrainians may be dying, but Americans must do the helping.
Zelensky’s trip to Washington affirmed and cemented the Ukrainian-American partnership simply by virtue of its having taken place. Symbolism matters, in politics as in life. Time magazine’s Person of the Year demonstrated that soft power could be as important as hard power.
Faced with Ukraine’s indomitable president and his mastery of symbols and semiotics, all that Putin can do in response is to fire rockets and commit genocide.
The damage to Ukrainians is immense, but as Ukraine’s diminutive president has shown, his people will not cave—a sentiment that all five patriots depicted in the paintings would have shared.
A 19FortyFive Contributing Editor, Dr. Alexander Motyl is a professor of political science at Rutgers-Newark. A specialist on Ukraine, Russia, and the USSR, and on nationalism, revolutions, empires, and theory, he is the author of 10 books of nonfiction, including Pidsumky imperii (2009); Puti imperii (2004); Imperial Ends: The Decay, Collapse, and Revival of Empires (2001); Revolutions, Nations, Empires: Conceptual Limits and Theoretical Possibilities (1999); Dilemmas of Independence: Ukraine after Totalitarianism (1993); and The Turn to the Right: The Ideological Origins and Development of Ukrainian Nationalism, 1919–1929 (1980); the editor of 15 volumes, including The Encyclopedia of Nationalism (2000) and The Holodomor Reader (2012); and a contributor of dozens of articles to academic and policy journals, newspaper op-ed pages, and magazines. He also has a weekly blog, “Ukraine’s Orange Blues.”
December 21, 2022 at 8:09 pm
No. It isn’t our war. It’s Ukraine’s. What part of Ukraine not being the ally of the United States do you not comprehend Motyl? Ukraine and its fate are not connected to our strategic interests, save insomuch as they weaken our primary opponent Communist China.
December 21, 2022 at 8:30 pm
Whao….screech…wait a minute….America is “the land of peace”??? Where the hell do you get this?
R E Conner
December 21, 2022 at 8:54 pm
What a captivating title! But where is the logic? I did not see much in the way of support for the writers assertion. I saw where he categorized the war as genocide (but didn’t justify this either) and I noticed how proud he was to see Zelensky had his picture taken in the White House against a backdrop of some of our more noteworthy presidents, but we still don’t know why he believes this is., or should be, our war.
I suppose I should applaud the writer for actually writing on policy, as opposed to writing simply about politics. However as the writer is a professor and author of several books, I really expected a well reasoned argument.
December 21, 2022 at 8:58 pm
Zelensky is trying to get out of his own skin to get handouts from the West. But everyone is already tired of him.
The story of Zelensky’s desire to speak before the World Cup final and FIFA’s refusal is very remarkable. The fact that Zelensky is trying to use any platform to beg for money to fight the evil Russians does not surprise anyone. It’s a little surprising that FIFA refused him this. But the most surprising thing is the reaction to the refusal of the Western press. Or rather, almost complete lack of reaction. If this story had happened six months ago, then all the Western media would have been hysterical for a week: FIFA insulted everyone’s favorite and fighter against Putin’s bloody regime. But now this “beggar and fighter ” is so boring to everyone and causes a gag reflex that only the sickest media paid attention to his fiasco.
December 21, 2022 at 10:06 pm
There is a world war going on right now, but mostly a cold one for the moment. Western Socialists, under the control of the WEF, are facing off against neo-Soviet Russia and the ChiComs in order to establish a new world order.
Putin & Xi may appear to be on the same side, as “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”, but that will change quickly even as Hitler & Stalin’s pact did. I don’t believe that BRICS will last long either as India & China will have a violent reckoning and the election outcome in Brazil being uncertain.
If you believe in Biblical prophecy, then everything is coming together for the Last Days. It is now even more clear that the Russian Federation & leader are being revealed as Gog/Magog.
With America’s political, judicial, economic, and moral systems being broken beyond repair, constitutional patriots will have to prepare to hold their state and local areas of operations as best they can against the storm of evil that is breaking…
December 21, 2022 at 10:24 pm
Yeah, it’s America’s war.
Therefore, biden needs to finish it by sending american boots to the war or battlefield.
December 21, 2022 at 11:18 pm
I support Ukraine and want to see the demise of Putin and his government but no, this is not America’s war. It is Ukraine’s war. It may even be considered Europe’s war. This war does not impose a direct threat to American security. With this obscene Omnibus bill providing another $45 BILLION in aid going to Ukraine, we are now well over $100 Billion sent to them in the last year. With absolutely no account as to where the money is going. And Zelensky has the nerve to tell us that it still isn’t enough! That amount is far more than the entire annual defense budgets of Germany and France COMBINED. We don’t have the money for this. We can’t afford to continue to be the world’s policeman. We have far more pressing needs here at home but I’m sure Lockheed and Raytheon are loving it.
December 22, 2022 at 12:19 am
Fyi: Zelensky isnt just “the ex-comedian”. He’s also got a degree in constitutional law, and ran a large production company.
As well, the author could have done more to list a handful of the many reasons why Ukraine, and weakening Russia, are important to the US. Easy things like:
-the EU being our #1 ally and trading partner… and many of them see Russia as an existential threat.
-Weakening Russia in the Black Sea, Central Asia, and Middle East loosens some pressure on Turkey…a NATO member. As well as our ally Israel.
There’s a good 15 more like this off the top of my head… but I digress… it’s late and I’m tired.
December 22, 2022 at 1:59 am
America’s war, bullcrap!! Congress has not declared war. Russia has not attacked the U.S. (but now well might, who knows.) Nothing but another chickenhawk war-rooter essay. This thug in a sweatshirt comes to the U.S. and the Congress claps and fawns all over him as he demands more and more and more from his American piggybank. He’s like the guys on Man vs. Food, putting on a show of gluttony, only it is not for a plate of ghost pepper hot wings to be devoured in half an hour, it’s for billions and billions of *Americans’ money* in perpetuity to fight a perpetual conflict with no end in sight. The war is a stalemate, and virtually no one except a brave few like Elon Musk dares to —gasp!—-call for a negociated settlement. Many are unnecessarily dying on both sides, and before it is all thru, billions might die, and that would include each and *every* reader of this website, and their families, before it all is forced by default to an end. One of the most outrageous developments of our time, and the same time that our own border collapses. And it is all fed by phony claims of “defending democracy” (there is no democracy in Ukraine, it is all controlled by Lord Voldermort), and “Putin is just like Hitler” (not on any scale, by any stretch of the imagination). The rooters for this war have absolutely no sense of reason or civic responsibility, and nothing seems to sway them otherwise. Will it take the sudden flash of a nuclear weapon exploding nearby to make these war rooters come to their senses? Let’s see how long they will be calling for “defending democracy” in Ukraine after that happens. But given their mentality, who knows, they might still be doing so amongst the radioactive rubble.
December 22, 2022 at 5:29 am
Ukraine is paying in blood for our defense we are just paying money
December 22, 2022 at 8:53 am
The world (except China and NK) don’t want war with Russia, but also don’t want Russia taking over other countries. What does it gain? China’s taking over Russian exports, and now no one will purchase Russian goods. Yeah fuel will come back, but not goods. This war hurts Russian future. Putins pride and miscalculation of Ukrainian resolve shows just how hard it would be for Russia to reclaim what Putin considers Russian “empire”. Russia will lose millions attempting such a feat.
Making Peace and applying for EU, using fuel proceeds to rebuild Ukraine would brighten the world this Christmas season which these nations all celebrate.
December 22, 2022 at 10:17 am
“We are just paying money” ? Yeh, a whole lot of American taxpayer money the Ukraine neither deserves nor earns. Stop treating Ukraine as the 51st state. That is what in part this whole “support for Ukraine” is about. Lord Voldermort Zelensky is more money-crazy than Scrooge McDuck. Money-crazy for American taxpayer money, that is, endless shovels and buckets-full of it. And he still can’t defeat the Russians for all his bravado. Wonder how long it will take the Russian military to zero in on and destroy these Patriot batteries planned for delivery, *which will include American military training and operations crews.* Want to start seeing American soldiers die in Ukraine, chickenhawk war rooters? I certainly don’t. The only possible slight upside to that is that it might give the pathetic fossil in the White House and his sycophant congressional lemmings a deserved uber-hard slap upside the head. American blood on *their* hands, then. But that might be one side benefit——if somehow phony super-macho, supposed mano-a-mano Joe could be brought to his senses without escalation to all-out nuclear war.
December 22, 2022 at 10:47 am
Oooooooohh, “he’s got a degree in constitutional law”. Really? Lord Voldermort of the ‘big U’ has such an impressive degree? From what institution, Hogwarts School of Magic? And in whose constitution? Certainly not the U.S. Constitution, the way he has acted, usurping political power in Ukraine and supressing any opposition or dissent there, even in their media. Or is his degree really more in milking the U.S. Constitution’s treasury for all he can grab? Yep, the price is right, Voldy, come on doowwwwwnn! “Whatever you want”, as the computer meme agent in ‘The Matrix’ said. Multi-rocket launchers? No problem. Patriot missiles? No problem. Maybe even tanks? No problem. Just like the guys in “Goodfellas”, if he wants something, he just comes to the U.S. Congress and Prez Joe Schmoe the Schmuck and in effect, takes it. Like boss Pauly, it’s “pay me”. Want me to give Russia a black eye? Pay me. Want me to defend our not-so-democracy in Ukraine? Pay me. Want me to make the boogeyman Putin look like Godzilla incarnate? Pay me. It’s just a bottomless money pit from which to….pay me. Pay me, American citizens and taxpayers, while you suffer thru near-record inflation, ever-increasing food prices (unlike in Moscow where consumers are paying almost half what Americans are in the grocery, despite supposed ‘sanctions’), skyrocketing crime, and millions of unvetted have-nots from the world over flooding thru your southern border. It’s all for….me! Not you, you are but peons to be herded in the newest world order, and pave my way upon the golden yellow-brick road. And the more we pay him, the more Putin doubles down. Sorry, NATO/US war-rooters, you have not made the big, bad bare-chested guy do anything else. Just remember what he has in reserve in his quivver of mighty powerful arrows. Then you might think again about bragging over just who has ‘degrees’ and what a whit of difference they *don’t* make.
December 22, 2022 at 11:40 am
The Ukraine Project is an American elite project.
The Ukrainian leadership would not be doing what they are doing without the full support of the Uniparty.
Sure, the American elite had a willing partner in the fanatics in Kiev… an excellent cat’s paw for their plans… fanatics are what you want in a cat’s paw because their willing to do whatever the cat wants.
(Occasionally, a fanatical cat’s paw will go beyond what the cat wants… that’s one way this war escalates beyond what the U. S. wants to happen… we’ve already seen Zelensky claim an S-300 missile which hit into Poland was Russian… that claim was wrong at best and most likely a lie in an attempt to bring Nato into the war… also deep strikes into Russia proper at a combined conventional/nuclear military air base.)
The Uniparty has supported this project for a long time, but stepped it up in 2014 with open support for the Maidan Coup.
So, the elite are on the hook for whatever happens.
I rarely agree with the good professor, but, here, he is right… this war is the American elites’ war… they own it, lock, stock, and barrel.
Again, the American elite are on the hook for whatever happens.
The Uniparty owns this war… the American People do not… but the American People will suffer the consequences for the elites’ actions.
December 22, 2022 at 12:32 pm
Didn’t this clown carry a garment bag with a suit in it? Or is he going full-on “Castro with the fatigues” instead?
December 22, 2022 at 2:06 pm
The Ukraine War is indeed OUR WAR. Those who don’t study History will be forced to repeat it. Putler had no valid reason to annex Crimea in 2014 and no valid reason to invade Ukraine.
If Ukraine is indeed NATO’s Proxy War, then NATO/US should send every modern weapon system to Ukraine and supply them with everything needed.
The Ukrainians are bleeding for The Free World. NATO/US has no Boots on The Ground….We are giving Ukrainians the ways and means to defeat a Madman and his Corrupt Oligarchs. I’d say that’s a great deal!!!!
NATO and The US should send Western Tanks and Fighter Jets as soon as possible. Stop FiddleFu*king around.
December 22, 2022 at 3:06 pm
I suppose you supported the billions we left in Afghanistan? Have we made any friends in the Middle East? I laugh at your tough infantile ramblings. Did you serve? probably not putz. Typical keyboard Commando stationed at Fort Livingroom. I did. 24 years and 3 wars, Gulf to Iraq. Being Ukrainian by ancestry and having family displaced over there, I fully support US support to Ukraine. I am dismayed that a knuckle-dragger such as yourself could congregate a verb. History? We may have avoided WW2 by not appeasing Hitler. I have no problem supporting my great-grandfathers homeland. Putin needs to be put down. Russia needs to pay dearly. Problem is that Russians from their founding are the eternal peasants. They have always been subjugated by their leaders be they Tsars or Soviet Premiers. Your anger towards Zelenskyy is misplaced. Your anger should be directed at the man that started this all. Barrack Obama. 2014 Crimea annexation and Georgian invasion?
Нехай Бог благословить Україну, президента Зеленського та Збройні сили України. Слава Україні і слава героям.
December 22, 2022 at 5:45 pm
Not only do I 2nd pretty much everything Ukrainian Pavlo said… your silly Goodfellas schtick is absurd. The money going to Ukraine pales in comparison to how much we spent in Afghan and Iraq, and we are witnessing the destruction of the Russian military without losing a single US soldier for pennies on the dollar of what we spent fighting in the Mideast for 20years.
Supporting Ukraine is possibly the Best money the US military has ever spent. Especially since, as stated above, Russia is an existential threat to the EU, and they are our #1 ally and trading partner.
The tragic irony of your silly screed is that if we sent more and better weapons sooner, the war would have been over sooner and cost less overall. But Biden does not want to escalate too far too fast. And seems intent on never supplying ATACMS. At 190miles, it barely scratches into Russia’s 11 time zones. But it would have a big impact in Ukraine.
Regardless, we are finally getting smarter about supplying Ukraine. Assuming we are sending Ground Launched Small Diameter Bombs [GLSDB] in 2023, and JDAMs -I am less convinced of JDAMs utility…but those are both plentiful weapons that are relatively cheap, and are highly accurate.
The GLSDB can be fired from HIMARS launchers Ukraine already has and costs about a third of what the current munitions cost, but has the same size warhead with double the range and more maneuverability. They are also readily available to be assembled mating the SDB with the rocket motor that both already exist.
Bottom line: even more bang for our buck coming to Ukraine soon. Combined with the winter freeze and there is a good chance we see further Russian defeats and retreats in the new year.
As for Zelensky’s degree, and work experience… you could come close to holding a candle to him. Ukraine’s Universities are actually quite good. And having worked in media, I know from experience that his duties running a production company that size were immense, and so was his success. You pretending he is a lightweight, inexperienced or uneducated simply reflects those traits upon you for being gullible enough to actually believe that.
As well, he comes from a long line of principled people. His family led the fight against organized crime and corruption in his hometown for decades. He didnt start pretending to be the man he is… it is in his family’s DNA. And he is exactly the right person to lead Ukraine to a better future away from Russian imperialism.
Have a liberating day.
December 22, 2022 at 6:13 pm
It’s not just a US and Ukraine war. It is a world war. It is as close as we are going to get to a war of good vs evil. Russia has no claims on its neighbor. It has no innate rights to anything. It is as close as we will find to an evil empire. A bully among nations.
Ukraine and all the countries that left the Soviet Union have every right to do as they like, including join NATO if they like. F Russia.
This war is a war between independent national self determination and a return to 19th century empire based on might makes right. So there can only be one outcome. The complete obliteration of Russia. And it is not just US but all countries of the world to repudiate Russian evil and put them in a box 6 feet under if they can’t give up their ridiculous hubris.
December 22, 2022 at 9:17 pm
It is not America’s war, but America is certainly justified in taking advantage of Putin’s miscalculation to bleed his autocratic regime white. CIA planners and operatives are giddy out of their mind at the sight of opportunities this invasion on Ukraine created.
December 22, 2022 at 10:28 pm
The statement of the US Secretary of State Anthony Blinkin sounded very timely. Blinken, in particular, said that “without leaving Afghanistan, we would not have been able to properly provide assistance to Ukraine.” It’s time for Zelensky to think about how soon the phrase will sound: “without leaving Ukraine, we would not be able to properly provide assistance to Taiwan.”
December 23, 2022 at 4:01 am
Put down the joint, maybe, and don’t get too high on yourself, Mr. Ukraine patriot. First of all let me ask—*you* served for *whom*, specifically, in what capacities? And just because you are a military veteran of whatever country does not in and of itself make you better than anyone else or necessarily put you on top of the world as far as being a high and mighty geopolitics expert. And how presumptuous you are. Yes, bunky, I *did* serve on active duty with the U.S. Army for almost six years from 1975-81, ~half the tour with 10th Special Forces Group, (were you at least airborne qualified as I was, and if so, how many jumps?), ~half with HQ USAREUR J2 in Germany (know where that was located then?…and I expect I won’t have to explain what J2 means, least I hope not), and that was right in the then-Soviet firing line as far as their targeting went, so don’t pull your ‘Gari-trooper’ crapline on me, hoss. If you want to know more it was as an intelligence analyst (top secret/compartmented-level security clearance, what was yours, again?) so I would say I have just as much credibility as you do in speaking out, regardless of comparative lengths of service. That enough for you? Should be. I notice *you* did not provide any initial details, so now that I have, let’s hear some of yours, just out of curiosity. But hey, *you* brought that up right off the bat, dude, so now *back* it up more. But Y’know, people such as yourself, who so readily swing their military experience around as a club against others, are as bad if not worse than the most committed millenial lefty pajama boys in their folks’ basements, ones who would never even consider military service, and whether with combat experience or not. Moreover, you will find a lot of combat veterans who became quite pacifistic after their service, and let me give as an example the most honored Major Dick Winters of 101st Airborne WWII Band of Brothers fame. If you might recall from the TV miniseries version, he said at the end “I’d had enough of war”. Unlike yourself, who seems might not have gotten enough. So, with your being such a proud Ukranian-in-heritage, well, hey there are still likely available flights to, say, Warsaw, to at least get you part of the way there! I would guess what remains of the Ukrainian army would so welcome and appreciate your vast reservoir of valuable experience, least they should. Or rather, should we expect you rather remain safely here with all your seal-barking chickenhawk war-rooter lemmings in the U.S. Congress? They all stamped and yammered and did everything but offer gold, incense, and myrrh at the feet of their I now guess new de facto U.S. President Zelensky (move aside, Pathetic Joe, we got a new real sheriff in town) at his Xmas tent-revival worship-fest the other night. And as far as Hitler went, your Ukraine was right up there in appeasement even during the war, when so many of your ancestral countrymen welcomed the Germans with open arms, and followed with rife collaboration on the part of many there–while the Russians did ‘bear’ a large chunk of the brunt in repelling him—so don’t lecture us on that aspect. As for the Russians, remember those ‘peasants’ put the first satellite in orbit, put the first animal, man, and woman in space, performed the first spacewalk, gave us the world’s best battlefield rifle by far, and oh, by the way, possess the world’s largest and newest nuclear arsenal, one with more than enough weapons to blow you right out of your smug, accusatory easy chair. We owe little if anything to the Ukes, they are not part of now-obsolete-anyway NATO anyway, the American people have no vested interest in this territorial dispute, and the U.S. Treasury, together with those of us taxpayers who support it, are not to be treated as Lord Voldermort’s virtual never-ending gold ‘n goodies supply vault. Sorry about your relatives, but I can’t help that. The Russians are not caving to Uke demands across the board, and they have the potential to more than back it up on a level neither you nor I would live long enough to see past, if live at all. Remember *that* is what isultimately at stake here, and this current situation vis-a-vis your ancestral homeland is just not worth it in the least. (By the way, in reference to what was left behind in Afghanistan, what American should be proud of that? ‘Cept Pathetic Joe, Cackling Kamala, ad nauseum.)
December 23, 2022 at 4:33 am
The Ukraine war is our war? By what declaration *of* war by Congress, again? Such declaratory bravado from the new chickenhawks. ‘Course, it is easy to be a war-rooter here when there is no draft to feed its fervor. Or should we have that, too? Step right up, the Ukraine-at-any-cost fanatics are ready to crank up their draft lottery, no doubt. But why wait for that? Lincoln Brigade II still beckons. What was that, there is no Lincoln Brigade II yet? How can that be? With all the war-rooters I always see commenting on this site, I would think the ranks of one would have by now been long-filled, and we would already have some vets singing glorious drinking songs of their battlefield exploits against the wily Ruskies. But I don’t see any here. What I do see is quite a few armchair de facto garitroopers whose alligator mouths overwhelm their parakeet anuses. Hm, it only figures.
December 23, 2022 at 10:18 am
LoL, your screeds are devolving into the uber absurd. You are blathering on about Ukraine and Nazi Germany… then pretending Russia was so valliant in WWII. Sorry to burst your bubble but you are ignoring the Von Ribbentrop Pact. That is Russia making a deal with the actual Nazis to carve up eastern Europe between them. They then annexed and/or invaded large parts of Ukraine, Poland, and more in complete coordination with Nazi Germany.
Only Operation Barbarossa, Hitler’s lunacy invading Russia just before winter, broke that deal.
As for Ukrainians working with Germany, that is sadly true. You are also ignoring the fact that it is centuries of Russian oppression and imperialism that largely drove that decision. Far more important is the fact that many Ukrainians fought and died fighting BOTH Russia and Germany in WWII.
To put an even finer point on it, one of the leading collaborators was Stepan Bandera. He was sentenced to death for his involvement in the 1934 assassination of Poland’s Minister of the Interior Bronisław Pieracki, commuted to life imprisonment.
Freed from prison in 1939 following the Nazi invasion of Poland, Bandera prepared the 1941 Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood in Lviv, pledging to work with Germany after Germany invaded the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941. The Germans disapproved of the proclamation and for his refusal to rescind the decree, Bandera was arrested by the Gestapo. Germany was never going to allow Ukraine to be a free state.
And who now is the biggest supporter of Ukraine among its neighbors? Poland. So Ukraine currently has a Jewish president who lost family in the Holocaust and was elected with %73 of the vote and Ukraine is getting major support from Poland…all proof of putting its Nazi collaborator past behind it…but you want to pretend you know more about how relevant that history is to current events than Poles and Jews of the area. That’s Hubris of the highest order.
Side note on the supply of weapons to Ukraine. The reality is the the total cost of our support for them is actually quite misleading. We are emptying our mothball closet to give them A LOT of old gear we dont use anymore. Hundreds of Hummers, Hundreds of MaxxPro MRAPS, Hundreds of M1117 Guardian vehicles, [all being replaced by JLTV]…Hawk missiles, even the Ground Launched Small Diameter Bomb…etc…
Billion$$$ should be shaved off the total cost of support for Ukraine for things we just arent even using and were only taking up storage space.
Bottom line: fold up your faux notion of smarts and research what you are posting first. Then try a bit of critical thinking, You might actually have a better idea of reality before you post in public.
December 23, 2022 at 10:32 am
H.R.Holm:”The Russians are not caving to Uke demands across the board, and they have the potential to more than back it up on a level neither you nor I would live long enough to see past, if live at all.”
Nuclear deterrent works as part of a defensive posture, you can’t threaten global destruction when not allowed to occupy other countries through conventional means. I mean you can, but everyone will ignore your threats, as they should when confronted with a silly idea like nuclear armed countries being allowed to annex any dozen of those that don’t have nukes.
December 23, 2022 at 11:12 am
Gary Jacobs (reply 1)—-
You speculate quite imaginitively yet still wildly about ‘what might have been’. Really? *How Do You Know???* ‘Woulda coulda shoulda’ conjecture—at best. Fact is, we have *committed* now some $100 billion to perpetuate this stupid conflict, whereas it would have been comparative peanuts for Pathetic Joe to try with equal fervor for a negociated settlement. The Turks had one ready to go back in the spring, but PJ nixed it, favoring instead to flex his own sadmouth macho man policy of supposed victory no-matter-what, and that includes serious risk of nuclear armageddon. Not worth it at all! This aid *has been as much* waste as the Afghan and Iraq involvements ever were, *doesn’t matter* if it isn’t nearly the same amounts, and for what—a largely territorial dispute between two foreign countries? ($100 billion is still $100 billion, and if that is but ‘chump change’ to you, well, you can deposit such ‘change’ in my bank account *anytime* if you somehow can, thankyou!) A dispute far away from where either you or I live, and which neither you nor I have any stake or interest in whatsoever—-and neither does any other American. What have the Ukrainians accomplished or gained except to needlessly bring on the gradual destruction of their land? They are closer to defeat than the Russians have been or likely will be. For all we have spent and committed, *it has not stopped or dissuaded the Russians*. And you clamor, ‘hey, just a bit more, and they’ll be on their heels, turning tail and running, you just wait.’ Really??? *What* evidence do you have of that to date? The conflict still continues! Yeah, Putin’s a schmuck, but along with PJ and Lord Voldemort, the trio constitute collectively the Three Stooges of our time, geopolitically. (I’ve even designed a T-shirt to reflect that.) None of them has taken any lead or even slight initiative in trying to resolve this sad situation, and the U.S. pumping in money and weapons without end is not going to help resolve it. As for Voldemort himself, just look at the guy for starters—-comes before the United States Congress wearing a dingy green sweatshirt, surprised he didn’t drag a backpack along. *That* is class and style? Ugh. And the squawking cheer-seals in Congress bayed like coyotes and swooned like Cinderella before their ‘charming prince’ in sickening unison, (just as the N. Korean ‘legislators’ clap in unison for Kim Jung Un, only no one wants to be the first to stop) with but a couple brave exceptions who had the *guts* to in effect call him out for what he is–a symbolic prop, a phony in effect—and not join the maddening (and mad) crowd. (Wish I could have been one of them, that circus sideshow would have ended up a lot more uh…interesting, shall I say, I can assure you.) The war-rooter sycophants compare him to ‘Winnie’ Churchill, but to paraphrase a famous quote—-he’s no Churchill !!! He is a thug who runs his country largely by his own word, no opposition allowed, and parades himself about as the second coming of a European JFK. Well, JFK almost got us into a nuclear war, and this guy has been trying even harder. Look what he tried to do with that utterly phony “Russian missile attack on Poland” earlier this fall, when it turned out to be his own damn anti-air missile that veered off course! He wanted a full-blown knee-jerk NATO response, how would *that* have turned out, hm? I suppose the next sickening accolade will be a Nobel Peace Prize nomination—-albeit not that those are worth a whit lately, anyway. But all involved in perpetuating this conflict are worthless fools, as none will genuinely seek peace. ‘This here’ is all about animal-instinct-driven mano-a-mano false bravado on all the players’ parts–iIncluding very much our (the U.S.’s) own. This is what the ‘world order’ has degenerated to. All the influencers perpetuating war for their own power and monetary gain, who do you think is making money off this fiasco? A number of people or orgainizations. And if you think it is such a good ‘investment’, then when can we expect to be paid some dividends, and in what form will those be? Well so far, pal, ain’t none being paid in any worthy peace agreement, that’s for sure. (Peace, it is like a silver cross to the war vampires.) And as for the ‘Goodfellas’ allegory, it holds up just fine. Now the U.S. is just like Henry Hill in the end, only addicted to and chasing after more war profits for the arms industry. Which figures. After all, we just traded to the Russians the world’s foremost arms dealer for a basketball player. Spreading that globalist wealth, I guess.
Yeh, Merry Xmas, bunky.
December 23, 2022 at 11:12 am
Walker, good vs. evil… you’re a simpleton.
It’s not black & white.
But that’s what mindless Trotskyites think.
Make it Universal, just like Trotsky’s call for world revolution because Socialism wasn’t safe until all
those bad capitalists are overthrown.
Your rants are what I would expect from a chowder-headed neoliberal.
No, we’re not in a world war.
No, we’re not in a General European War.
Only idiots like you want a General European War, let alone World War III.
December 23, 2022 at 11:48 am
Yes, ‘everyone’ can ignore the nuclear threats—-until one side or another starts the nuclear warheads flying. Then there is no more ignoring, there has only then been ignor*ance* up to that point. Yeh, if the Russians weren’t nuclear-armed NATO might have actively challenged them a lot more, but that wouldn’t have made NATO right. *Ukraine is not a member of NATO*, what part of that don’t you war-rooters get?? And there is no certainty NATO would have been victorious, its overall forces now are not nearly as sizable for the Russians to consider as during the cold war, especially in view of the preparedness shortcomings the U.S. military has incurred (oh, look, the entire B-2 fleet was grounded the other day, and remains so), now adding the absurd political ‘wokeness’ policies to it. And not ‘everyone’ is ignoring the nuclear threat, I would surmise it is very much on many Europeans’ minds, for starters. They’re in the ‘crosshairs middle’, as it were, after all. And the war-rooters policy here has been only one thing: poke sharp sticks at venomous snakes. Or rather in this case, a venomous bear. And not a good idea to poke sticks at a non-venomous one, either. You all just can’t get that. And I think loading their latest ICBM into a silo for the world to see makes the Russian bear particularly venomous, especially when they say it can hit Washington as well as London. (Which in a way would not be a bad idea if it were their only target.) By the way, why don’t you list the rest of those ‘dozen countries’ you infer the Russians have recently annexed, I cannot think of one. The Ukraine itself still largely retains its own sovereignty. Then update your Xmas wish list to include some combat support gear for your forthcoming volunteeer mission to Kiev.
December 23, 2022 at 12:58 pm
H.R. Holm, you are missing the point, saying that Putin has to be allowed to win a conventional war as he might resort to nuclear weapons is a destabilizing position as everyone and their mother will suddenly view going nuclear as a survival mechanism. Having nuclear weapons cannot be viewed as a license to do whatever a sick regime in charge may want to accomplish.
December 23, 2022 at 2:09 pm
Gary Jacobs (continued):
20-30 million war-dead, that makes Russia phony-valiant in resisting the German invasion? Man, you have some perversely distorted sense of the costs of war to so cavalierly dismiss that, dude. Talk about ignorance and blather, you have some nerve to accuse others of it. Oh, just an aside to you, I suppose. Are the comparatively small but still real 400,000+ American WWII casualties an aside, also? As for the Soviet-German non-aggression pact, that was all Stalin’s doing on the Soviet part. Unfortunately and admittedly, he dithered when the Germans broke it, but break it *the Germans* did. Regarding this Bandera character, I had no idea who he even was, I had to look him up, as you would not even say what his exact official role or title, if any, was. Assassin, big deal. So was Lee Harvey Oswald, but who the hell amongst the masses remembers a Bandera from their school history classes? (Seems also he was not a Ukrainian citizen to begin with?) The Germans got rid of anyone they wanted to, Hitler countenanced no collaborators or appeasers for long. He was a member of an unfavored race in ol’ Adolf’s view after all, and therefore completely dispensable. As for the Poles’ unconditional support of Ukraine, I think instead it has been more tepidly measured, and are they ’emptying’ their own armed forces arsenals to support the Ukranians, too? Mmmm, doubt it. Speaking of that, hmmm. So we are actually giving the Ukranians our ‘sloppy seconds’ a la second-hand Rose (as no doubt Ukranian war supporter big-bucks-Babs Streisand sang, most entertainment honcho airheads are all in on your support act, too—just look at Voldy butt-kissers Ben Stiller and Sean Penn) so we can replenish our own stocks with more modern toys? *How* convenient, and, welllllll, *who does that benefit*??? Why, U.S. weapons manufacturers, of course. Can anyone say ‘record profits’ in the works, if not already here? Of course, *that’s* one thing it is all about in the end. So how *has* your war portfolio done lately, Gary? Rather good, could we expect? What’s that, you *don’t* invest in arms stocks? Well, why not, you certainly fit that investor mold, judging from all the rah-rah cheering for Ukraine-or-bust you do. So, you want some ‘real research’, do you? Why don’t we start with Lockheed Martin, Gary? Stock price up over 40% in the last year, according to Yahoo finance. That’d buy a lot of cammo gear for under your Xmas tree, wouldn’t it? Next let’s look at General Dynamics, started the year at around $212, now at ~$248. *By the stock chart, Gary*. Nice rise, isn’t it? Gee, wonder why. Hey, that kind of increase would buy a lot of ammo magazines for your special Ukraine fireplace stocking, eh? (Wow, now you’d have —-cammo ‘n ammo!) Next up, one of your likely favorites, Raytheon,~ $89 to $99; not quite as much, but still credible as far as stock price increase. Oh, and they make the Patriot missile, which…we are going to provide to Ukraine now, what a convenient coinky-dink, no?? What, we’re clearing out all the ‘older models’ there, too, are we? Better ask Santa for some of that defense red-meat equity too, you could buy a lot of Ukranian Soldier’s Chorus glorious war songs greatest hits albums with those prospective profits. “Shaving off billions”?? No, rather *padding* more taxpayer billions onto the arms makers, at least some of which will unarguably in turn find its way back to lots of Congressional campaign coffers. So they can do even more fawning seal-barking at Voldy’s next address. And that’s not counting the billions cargo-pants Voldy is likely siphoning for him and his cronies, too. No, Gary, the real bottom line is that this war is very much about money and who gets what of it. Maybe including yourself? (Hey, I admittedly can’t say on that for sure.) But the record of U.S. government appropriations and all its sneaky-snakey globalist conduit flows speaks for itself. And that is your ‘bottom line’ truth, Gary. Only to quote another Hollywood line—-“You can’t handle the truth!!”
December 23, 2022 at 2:21 pm
No, the underlying *point* *is* ‘the nuclear factor’, it makes and changes everything in geopolitics, and cannot be so readily dismissed. No one is ‘allowing’ Putin to win a conventional war, but most wars are won or lost in some regard by someone, and we can only go so far in poking the bear. How far do we have to go on that? Do you really want to risk ultimately finding out if Putin or even NATO will pull that grisliest trigger? *It only will take one to start that ball rolling*, most assuredly, no matter who tosses it. BTW, still waiting for that list of a dozen countries Russia has annexed.
December 23, 2022 at 4:35 pm
H.R. Holm, supplying Ukrainians with means to defend themselves is not “poking the bear”. Russia having nukes does not give it a freedom to go around and annex other countries at will, and if it is allowed to annex parts of Ukraine, it is allowed to go and annex a dozen other countries. Same reasoning, they’ve got nukes, bla bla bla, radioactive ash, bla bla
No, nuclear blackmail will not work. If people around Putin are stupid enough to end the human civilization over devastated parts of Ukraine they grabbed committing war crimes, well, they would have done it at some point down the road anyway.
p.s. at what point would you call Putin’s bluff? One Latvian village? Entire Latvia? Four European countries? Seven of them? What is your red line?
Andrew P Grigorenko
December 26, 2022 at 9:36 pm
Unfortunately, many comments confirmed that someone who doesn’t learn from it’s past bound to be defeated again. Commentators even repeat ” European war” – the idea were exercise before Pearl Harbor. Do we really want to go back to 1941?